the trump campaign will give an update on their election legal challenges. we hear from the president's attorney rudy giuliani. live coverage from the republican national committee headquarters in washington, d.c. gets under way at 12:00 eastern on c-span3, online at cspan.org or you can listen with the free c-span radio app. week nights this month we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span3. tonight caroline wood newhall discusses black prisoners of war and the confederacy. she talks about the treatment of those prisoners and how many were enslaved, including those born free in the north. watch tonight at 8:00 eastern and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span3. brendan buck joins us now, former press secretary to john boehner and speaker of the house then and former counsel to

speaker paul ryan. let's begin with the election. what do you think is the state of the republican party after november 3rd? >> you know, it's surprising, it's an election where you had the rare event of an incumbent president getting voted out and yet republicans seemed pretty happy generally with the outcome not because he's lost but because down-ballot they did so well. i think there was a lot of expectation after this election, if the polls were right and it was going to be a blowout for democrats, that there would be a lot of grappling within the party about what it stands for and what the future is and where to go from here. i haven't seen that at all. in a lot of ways republicans feel like what the outcome particularly down ballot is justification of everything that the president has been doing and that trumpism, if you will, has worked. you had a situation where democrats were expected to take another 10, 12, maybe 15 seats and in fact had lost close to 10

in the house. certainly, democrats are very demoralized about not getting the senate. so everybody that was hoping for or expecting perhaps a conversation among the party about what we really stand for, i think that is put off and for the time being, despite the fact that he lost, i think it is still going to be donald trump's party and he's going to be the biggest voice. >> it how do you react to this headline in the business section of "the new york times" -- counties for biden had higher job losses. >> well, i think ultimately this election was more about donald trump than joe biden or really any other particular factor. i think this was a referendum on donald trump and i think a lot of people that came out were really just trying to send a message to the president. i think the biggest areas of the country if you're looking for the story of the election, the biggest areas of the country that really put joe biden over the top were the suburbs, with more educated, more affluent,

particularly white women who had just had enough. and they came out in droves. and that is ultimately what drove the outcome of the election, more really than -- i think a lot of us expected covid would have a bigger impact. certainly i think joe biden's mandate coming out of this is to address that crisis. but jobs, the economy, i think all were real slickedary to donald trump, his personality and really just a referendum on him as a person. >> if that's the case, how can you say trumpism worked? >> i'm not saying necessarily that it does but i'm saying that's what a lot of republicans have internalized from this. i think if there was a blowout election, you would see a rout of republicans saying maybe we need to rethink this. but given the strong showing down ballot, the way republicans who are still in office have taken this, maybe the populism,

9 politi politics that maybe drives dpreevance, that works. that sells with republican voters and shows we can turn out a lot of voters, republican voters anyway. but i don't necessarily know that's a good long-teerm play. i don't know if you can have trumpism without trump. i know a lot will be trying to position themselves to be the 2024 standard bearer but with trump still there, that is an open question. but a lot of people who are trying to fill that role are really adopting that populist type politics donald trump made so famous. so i don't know he necessarily has a good long-term plan but they certainly don't seem like they're moving away from it any time soon. >> what advice would you give to the party about making adjustments based on the outcome and turnout you saw in suburbs and other areas you just talked about? >> to me i think the story of the election is that character matters. i think that was really what was

on the ballot in a lot of these places. i don't think these suburban areas are necessarily progressive, and i this is that is why you sound down ballot races go so poorly for democrats. it's interesting, if you look at polling over time, people often ask the question, not who do you want to win but who do you think is going to win? a lot of time you saw people thinking donald trump would win. towards the end a number of voters woke up and polling showed this, more voters thought that joe biden was going to win. when they thought joe biden was going to win, they thought perhaps they should put a check on a biden presidency. so that tells sploeters in these areas are not necessarily signing up for a bold, progressive agenda, green new deal, tax increases, large health care plan. they just wanted to end the donald trump presidency. and so there's a lot of opportunities still to win back those voters but you need to show that you've learned the lesson that you're not just a trump party, that you have

ideas, that you care about things, you have character and those things still matter as particularly on the margins we're talking about. >> who in the party represents the future? >> certainly right now it's still donald trump. and people are looking for what's next. i don't think we're at that point yet. obviously it's been reported the president is talking about running again in 2024. i will be shocked if he doesn't at least present the appearance he's going to do that for the next two to three years. but either way he's going to have the largest voice. there's always a recent bias, are we just saying that because he's here? and if he loses, does his light dim a little bit? perhaps. but i think it's important to appreciate the party doesn't exist in a way that it you used to. there's no real establishment. there's no one that sets the agenda. we chase personalities these days and donald trump is clearly

the biggest personality. the way he's taken ahold over voters is the most important thing to appreciate. it's not that members of congress who go along with whatever he says are doing it because they like him necessarily or they respect him personally, it is because when they go home and they hear from their constituents, the number one thing that their constituents want to know is, are you with the president? i have heard it so many times when i was in the house. we would be trying to sell the bill. here's the reason to vote for that. numbers would say, i'm with you, i understand. what i need to hear is that trump is for it because that's all my constituents care about. you have a lot of voters still the number one issue is support for the president and that flows up to members of congress and that colors the entire are party apparatus. are there other people who may want to take the party in a different direction? you look at obviously a mitt romney staked out his own ground. i don't think he has any interest in running for anything else ever again. you see ben sasse who clearly is

not a donald trump-style republican. the problem for them is that the lane, so to speak, out there is very narrow for those types of people because so many republicans are all donald trump republicans at this point. he has taken it over. so they can try to lead a moment and i just don't really think there's a lot of space for that. there's not a lot of voters. you're not leading a movement because there's nobody there. >> i want to show you and our viewers what representative kevin mccarthy, the minority leader in the house who was just re-elected to the top post for republicans had to say about the future for the party. >> you're assuming president trump is moving on. i think the president regardless of whether he's president again or citizen trump, i think he will continue to play a part in this nation. i look at the members who got elected under president trump. the president helped them get elected in the process as well and we expanded the party. how is the party going to look different?

it's going to look broader. it's going to reach more people than it reached before. it's going to expand like we haven't seen from new americans to first generations to the zpangs throughout. i think you're going to continue to see a desire to put america on a path where the next century is ours. that we have rebuilt our military to continue that to make it stronger, despite what the progressives would want to do on the opposite side. we watched we looked forward to making our streets safe and secure, despite what the other side would want to do with definding the police. we watch what we want to do with criminal justice, despite what joe biden has done as a senator, locking people up based on the color of their skin. yes, we will bring up the things we believe in. >> why he is making those points? >> he's trying to make the points republicans had a really good election night down ballot in the house and expanded their numbers by electing women and by

adding african-americans and asian-americans to the conference in a way we haven't been able to do if a while.d tho minorities, with particularly hispanic voters, there's a story to tell. whether that's enough to get you over the top, i don't know. going ton mccarthy is be doing is really running hard against the joe biden administration. kevin did an incredible job in bringing republicans right near the finish line. we are going to have a republican minority, you need 218 and they have 214. so close. to fromd to do now is just being a donald trump party to being a good opposition party , running against that progressive agenda. host: how you do that, if you are in your role that you have been in, to the speaker's

office, what advice would you be giving kevin mccarthy right now about how he plays out the next two years? onst: he needs to be focused the democrats. it's much easier to be a minority party when you have an administration today gone to the biden administration's legislative agenda has probably taken a serious hit without having control of the senate but we don't know that for sure and it seems that way. that means there's no shortage of things that joe biden will end up doing through administered actions, executive orders that i think will fly in the face of what average americans were expecting from a joe biden administration. joe biden ran as a centrist. i think he is naturally a centrist. but he's facing a lot of pressure from the left, the progressive wing of his party to do more, to go bigger and be bolder. i think you'll end up doing a lot of those things. i don't think the country centerleft. i think the country center

right. that will provide a lot of opportunities, to the extent that joe biden has to continue aoc's of the world. and he will have to do that. those are robert -- those are opportunities to remind people that who is in the house makes a difference. they can serve more as a check on the biden administration that's the most powerful message you have going into 2022, it will party can serve as a check. you always ask the question, would you rather have a congress that helps the president pass their agenda or one that serves as a check? overwhelmingly, the american people like checks and balances. that's the message i'm sure kevin mccarthy will run on. host: and he has promised, or predicted, that republicans will take back the house in 2022. let's take calls, sabrina in

north carolina, on the independent line. caller: i'm curious on the stimulus packages. is notstand that biden for those but we desperately need them. asheville has several businesses closed due to covid and there's hardly any work. so my question is, do you think that biden is going to pass any relief packages for the people? i think he wants to. one of the situation -- this is one of those situations, where everyone wants to do something. i'm disappointed congress didn't get something done. from my perspective nancy pelosi got in the way of that, that she did not want to change the election. she was clearly running out the

clock on the trump presidency, thinking she could potentially get a better deal with biden. i think that's a risky proposition. the idea that republicans who are hesitant to get there andre donald trump administration are now going to come and be with a isen administration on covid -- i'm skeptical. do i have confidence anything will happen now? all appearances are no. does not even seen that there are conversations taking place. the president has not demonstrated a lot of interest in governing. but i think it will be a top priority of the biden administration. if there was a mandate beyond being a good guy, it was to resolve this crisis, not just the public health crisis must be -- but the economic crisis. he will have to find a way to do

things. the problem is what senate republicans want and what he wants and what nancy pelosi wants are in -- are different in detail and scope. this is where joe biden's reputation will have to come into play. he's known as somebody who can get along and has a track record of working with mitch mcconnell to get things done. but there a long playing field here before they can get to the finish line. in quincy,, michigan, a democratic caller. caller: good morning. congress,licans in from what i remember, expressed their real opinions on donald ,rump before he was elected which is basically that he's a joke, a carnival barker, a con

man, all supported by his trump university lawsuits, where he had to pay out what was it? over $20 million for defrauding students? $2 million for defrauding charities? anyway. they gave their real opinion. jettisoned jet -- all integrity, except for perhaps mitt romney who has a to thehat doesn't hinder to the base,r which is a cult of personality. is, i've twoon questions. happened to the republicans that cared about deficits? host: let's take that question.

guest: you're starting to see them do that now. that was one of the biggest hangups on the covid relief package. nancy pelosi was talking about deal in herrillion first offered. one of the things that really setback negotiations early on with you had a lot of republican senators who strayed out the gate said we are not interested in spending that much money. the first timele .he cares act passed trillions of dollars that has to in days with big republican support. that was unthinkable a few years ago. but it is starting to catch up with them a little bit, certainly deficits have been going up. this was a president that never really cared about them. mild boss try to convince him of the importance of that and he made very clear early on that that was not something that

motivated him. there's only so much you can ask out of republicans who keep voting for trillions of dollars in spending. early on that was one of the hangups. i think donald trump had leaned into this early on, it was not until september or october he woke up to the fact that this was not getting done. i think it was too late at that point. if you had come out earlier in the summer and set republicans you need to do this and get behind this, there might have been a different story. but his absence left many republicans coming out saying we are not spending this much money . that's why the bill that senate republicans have come up with this only in the level of 500 million. far less. republicans had enough spending. joanne, in nevada, a republican. delegate incame a

2008 because i did not like the centrist mccain. to electingent mccain, how centered. i think we went too much to on electing centrists, and there was no area for them to go to to bargain on a deal. everybody just met in the middle and everybody was happy and everyone checked their salary and i had to work for mccain to get votes for him. i we couldn't get people out to vote for him. mitt romney, we couldn't gather 20 people in a car wash, for god's sake to me because nobody liked him. he didn't bring the party together.

s make trump has brought the party together. we make deals.people you go to the right, let the democratic party go to the left and then let's make the deal and meet in the middle. you people have led us down a o- bad road for 30 years. we're tired of the centrists. >> is that what happened?the when republicans held the majority in the house, when you were there serving speaker paul ryan, is that the strategy and did it work? >> i think that call is a great example of the state of our politics right now. there is very little center and i would argue there's actually very little deal making going dealm onch that we are a very divided country and both parties largely taken the approach that you stick with each other and you bring out your base and you fire up your own voters and that's the path ahead and that leads to and i -- it leads to a volatile kind e of politics. proce

i would disagree, it doesn'tss end up to a lot of deals being made and what happens is you have a breakdown in the legislative process because there is no compromise at any si stage and you end up having to govern by crisis. and i mean by that government funding deadlines and the fiscal cliff s is a great example where we're running up the deadline becausee there was no ability for lawmakers to do their job befort that, because no one was willing to compromise before that. when ends up happening, you see the leaders come together at the last minute to try to stave offl crisis ande avert disaster andd pass a deal at the last minute.n it's ag terrible way to legislate, but it's what we're n left with. polariz i understand why people would get frustrated seeing that. i would argue that it is a reflection that the polarization has not allowed us to come together earlier on and have a really functioning, legislativ'' system. >> let's go to fred in millbrook, new york. independent.nt. hello. >> hi, fred. are >> caller: thanks for taking my call.pupp i just want to say both political parties want puppets.,

you get a guy like trump who i isn't controlled by either ht wn political party, i' actually thought he would get assassinated..crat or i always thought to myself whate would happen if they had a non-democrat or non-republican president like a libertarian. i would figure the democrats an- would probably get together ands assassinate him. i think why donald trump didn't get assassinated is because he's under the republican banner. let's go to john, democrat. >> yes. i'm an ex-republican. i used to like john mccain.i lie and i'm a vietnam veteran. mccai i went to war for men like donald trump to say, hey, listen, i've got bone spurs and take off for golf lessons instead of taking care of this pandemic. now his party and him are guilty

of spreading this dirty, nasty disease around the country, and the gentleman on the panel, i don't care what you care, i er don't care about your party. i quit your party because your party has nothing to offer me. and i only care about me like donald trump cares about him.art now the reason he's not admitted to the president-elect that he won the election is because he r wants to hold onto something he ain't got. he stole the apprentice from mark bethea and he's done no good for people in the buildingo -- his buildings in atlantic city.time for >> okay, john.

i'm going to join in. do you think it's time for president trump to concede this race? >> oh, certainly. i think it is nonsensical, and you know, one of the things i've learned over my years, with thil president, you have to demonstrate why he should do something because it's in his own best interest, and he's not terribly interested in helping . the party or anyone else. i think what he should he canis appreciate is he's hurting his s own legacy by doing this. and he's hurting the potential to hold the senate majority which i think would hurt his legacy by doing this. there's absolutely no basis for this. his time is running out and you'll have states starting to . certify results very shortly, but i do think that what he's doing is very harmful. i'm from georgia.n i'm looking at those senate races down there and those e hie runoffs that will determine the outcome of the election and his message to voters that your voto doesn't matter.

elections are rigged. democrats are out to get you, is starting to seep in to voter psyche down there and it could terrible hurt turnout, and it could give. democrats those two seats which would give democrats the senate majority and i really think that he should stop for his own best interest. >> we're talking about senator n david purdue, the incumbent republican being challenged by jon ossoff, the democratic tion, challenger and kelly leffler challenged by reverend warnock. those two elections,n okla the runoff race is taking place january 5th. susan in tulsa, oklahoma. republican.ican. susan, good morning.beli >> caller: good morning. >> go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: i just wanted to say i don't believe we have a national agenda, and i don't believe we've had a national agenda for many years.. i can't remember really, the immigration on this last election and the verbage that

-- verbiage about people in america, why do they need jobs, why don't we bring people in, why don't we cut it off for a while. i think that might have been important in this last election. but prior to that, i think it was possibly balancing the budge. when we had three candidates run, and he did win and balance the budget at the expense of americans. however, we need another national agenda and maybe these new gop women will be bear cats in there and get this country back on track instead of pandering to all of these minority groups. we have fought these fights over and over again and they keep coming up just during elections and nothing really gets accomplished and i think people do appreciate the fact that president trump actually did do some of the things that he promised, and he's just trying to complete that now with the troops. we didn't go over there to win those wars and we went over there to make an influence in the world and vietnam was the same way. so this is all kind of crazy, this talk and these things that these people say.

they don't even understand what's going on. >> susan, i'll have brendan respond to you about a national agenda. >> i think what she's getting at is there haven't been a lot of things that have pulled us all together for some type of national unity to get something done and attack a major problem. i think the covid crisis will be that, and i think it has been for the last year. i think that that is going to be the dominant story for the next six months in politics both in responding to the public health situation across the country with what cities and states are doing and certainly in washington trying to pass a new legislative package, and an administration tackling this. we've got a vaccine online. this is a moment we're happy with the outcome because we're able to pull together but a long way to go. >> brendan buck, what are the

vulnerabilities of kevin mccarthy as a leader? >> vulnerabilities. kevin's strength has always been the ability to pull together his members. even as a junior membership of the leadership, he understood politics better than anybody, and now he is not necessarily -- if you want to contrast him with my old boss, he's definitely less of a policy person. to his credit, he's more of a politics person and always understood, and i think that's why they work so well together so while kevin wasn't necessarily as focused on the policy or the details of the bill we're bringing up, he really understood what motivated members and i think that's what's going to be helpful for him in the minority with trying to take back the house and it is largely politics and you're not writing bills in the minority and setting a policy agenda in the minority, you're driving politics and understanding what is good for members to help them do what they need to do to get re-elected and get over that

finish line of taking over the majority. i think he's very well positioned for his position in the minority because of his political acumen and less on the policy agenda. >> give us an example or a story that illustrates kevin mccarthy's political savviness. >> early on, they used to call his office the clubhouse, because there were always members there, welcome there and he made it basically a hangout in his office. everybody would sort of joke about he's got food and he's got video games going in his office -- or movies, i should say. and you sort of laughed at it. but it showed very early on that he understood that politics is played at a personal level. personal relationships are what drive getting things done. and he developed trust across the conference. and that's what you've seen right now.

whether i'm working for boehner or paul ryan, it was the freedom caucus that was our biggest problem. they were always shooting at us and they were always trying to come up on what we were doing, kevin mccarthy has neutralized that and has been able to koeg with an alliance with the freedom caucus that i didn't think was possible. it's because he works so hard on those personal relationships. you always knew you could get something done by sending kevin in to talk to folks. he worked hard on that. there were times when things had blown up in the last few years when we were in the speaker's office. particularly with the administration, you needed someone to go in and deliver a message and it was always kevin because not just in the house, he had developed such a good relationship in the white house with the president as well as his senior staff. did he ever push back on being that messenger? >> no. i think he rely i should it. he loved the personal interplay between people. he craves conversation. he's always talking to somebody.

i actually worked for kevin for a little while, and one of the things that was most stunning to me when we first got in -- we were getting in an suv going to an event something. he pulled out his phone and started calling reporters. i was his press guy, and i was taken aback by that. it just demonstrates he loves talking to people and he loves hearing what people are hearing and he loves knowing where you're from and knowing your wife's name and your kids' name and your dog's name and developing that connection and it's not fake, it's who he is he's a people person. he loves going in and loves being the one in the room to solve a problem. >> savannah, georgia, maria, an independent. >> caller: yes. >> maria, can you please turn off your television? listen and talk through the phone. >> caller: it's off, ma'am. >> go ahead. >> caller: okay. yes. i've enjoyed the conversation mr. buck is providing. it is the first time i've had

some sort of idea of what's happening with the republican party. the president can salvage his legacy if he concedes the election and then spends the next four years working at building up his base. he's got 72 million people out there. leave the presidency with dignity and respect for the democratic party. >> brendan buck? >> i absolutely agree. this president has developed a following unlike anything i've seen maybe ever in presidential politics. the loyalty to which republican voters give him is remarkable. it has -- it rears its head everywhere throughout our politics and the legislative process and the electoral process, and he'll be the most sought after surrogate in the 2020 midterm for people to come out. he really is the party at this point. the question is what can he do with that?

can he use that remarkable power that he has whether it's the power to marshal voters and the he controls what we talk about and we never figured out and maybe joe biden is the only one to figure out how to deal with that. the problem is he's never been able to use it for good and what i mean by that is most of the super powers he has, he uses for his own self-indulgence to get attention for himself as sort of the end goal in itself. and i think what he could potentially do and he had the potential to do all kinds of things no other president could do, whether to get a deal on daca, dreamers, immigration, get a deal on guns that probably no republican could do other than him, use those hours he has to have people follow him, no matter what policy he's for.

use that remarkable power he has to get attention for himself and drive towards outcomes, drive toward policy goals and not necessarily saying those are the only two things he should be focused on and he has the ability to do all kinds of things that no other republican could, and if he just focused his energies and following and his power to get attention on and agenda, it could be powerful and something he could run on in 2024. >> brendan buck, did your old boss, speaker paul ryan, share that opinion that he had super powers that he didn't use for good? did he try in his conversations with the president when he was in office to twins him of that? >> i certainly think he was in awe of the president's political powers. his ability to rile up voters and his ability to almost move past policy, in a lot of ways the last few years have been a post-policy world where it is really whether you are with or against the president that defines and clouds everything, and it was really hard to, at first, to grapple with that, and

everything has to be looked at through the prism of where the president is on it. certainly, one of his primary jobs for those two years was trying to help the president be a better president and that was a lot of conversations and advice on things that you should or shouldn't do or shouldn't say or approaches he should take. i'm well aware that he is one of the many voices that the president was hearing, but it was definitely his goal from the outset of those two years to try to help him be a better president. how successful we are, i think that's hard to judge, but he talked to him quite regularly. certainly, i think, more early on than toward the end that they were as close at the end of that term, and i know that the president still has some issues with the former speaker, but he certainly tried to help and tried to give him a lot of

advice about using his megaphone to advance things in a positive way. >> their relationship publicly seems strained, the president was critical of him. what impact did that have personally on paul ryan? >> he's a pretty resilient guy. i don't think it impacted him too much. he understood this is part of the job and he knew it was a unique president. >> welcome, everybody. thanks for being here. here are the steps we need to take. think back to health care is one of the top priorities, explaining if we're going to do hillary clinton do it through budget reconciliation, cut the bhunlg first, so budget first, granular things. there was strain in the relationship. it came offer time, largely

around the issue of immigration. obviously the president wanted money to build a wall in a way that was hard to do. in reality we tried to get what we could here and there. it took a lot of bites of the apple. it tired his patience. if there was an issue, it was that. i don't know what really motivates the president's animus he may have towards the former speaker. i know paul is fine and happy with how it worked out on his end. i don't have a ton of insight how the president is thinking. as i said, he tried to help him. >> did the former speaker support the re-election of president trump. >> i actually have not asked him that question. i don't know who he voted for. you'll have to invite him on to know who he voted for. >> we'll go to denise. democratic caller, you're next.

>> hi. first i'd like to thank you, c-span, because i've learned a lot about government and how it works by watching people debate on the floor of the senate and the house, and i kind of understand my government a little bit better. i'm not pleased with either side going down the middle. it's not been about we, the people. it's been about one man and his goals. personally, i think i'm extremely happy with him being gone come january 20th. i think he will take matters in hand. i think he's been working kind of before --